Near-Death Experiences Books - Page 6

Beyond The Veil/NDE Near Death Experiences

Lee Nelson, Richard Nelson

Amazon Price: $10.36 List Price: $12.95 Usually ships in 24 hours By: Cedar Fort Amazon Marketplace: 15 new & used starting at $7.96

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General AAS
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> Occult -> Near-Death Experiences

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 1 Average rating: 5.0 of 5

NDE's are Facinating 5 out of 5 stars.
1 of 5 people found this review helpful.

I enjoyed this book. Want to read I, II and III now.

Is There An Afterlife?: A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence

David Fontana

Amazon Price: $16.47 List Price: $24.95 Usually ships in 24 hours By: O Books Amazon Marketplace: 40 new & used starting at $11.31

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> Mysticism
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> Occult -> Near-Death Experiences
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> Occult -> General

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 12 Average rating: 4.5 of 5

Good book, poorly copyedited 3 out of 5 stars.
4 of 4 people found this review helpful.

David Fontana provides a very good overview of the evidence for survival of human consciousness/personality of the physical death of the body. He musters a considerable body of evidence from various areas of parapsychology to suggest, very strongly, that we don't die with our bodies. The literature on this subject is immense, and Fontana does a good job of surveying most of the important works. A notable and admirable feature of the book is that Fontana does not hesitate to point out weaknesses in certain arguments, though in the final analysis he clearly believes (with good reason) that the scientific evidence supports the idea of survival. The implications of survival are enormous and would likely change much about how we lived our lives if it were to be widely accepted.

For me a major flaw in the book is the poor copyediting. The same name is spelled two or three different ways on the same page or within a few pages (for example, at the top of p. 167, Fontana mentions "Australian-born medium Aviva Neumann." Three lines later the first name is spelled Avival, and two pages later it's spelled Avuva), there are lots of typos, the margins go from fully justified to left justified for a few paragraphs toward the end, etc. The biggest flaw in this regard is that almost none of the in-text citations in Chapters 15 and 16 have corresponding references in the bibliography. This makes it virtually impossible to track down the works cited if one wants to read them (as I do). This sloppiness in organizing the book and poor copyediting is not only very distracting and frustrating (since I'm the type of person that would like to read other works, and the missing references happen to be on topics that interest me most in this whole area), but it could provide skeptics with an avenue for criticizing the soundness of the scholarship. In general, these kinds of omissions make me wonder about the scholarship of a particular book, but in this case I don't think it undermines Fontana's argument. But still, they are very disappointing.

Perhaps some people might think three stars is a little harsh for the issues cited, but they are important to me and detract from the book's readability.

Editorial Review:

This book presents the most complete survey to date of the evidence, both historical and contemporary, for survival of physical death.

We Live Forever: The Real Truth About Death

P. M. H. Atwater

Amazon Price: $10.36 List Price: $12.95 Usually ships in 24 hours By: A.R.E. Press (Association of Research & Enlig Amazon Marketplace: 47 new & used starting at $5.03

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> Channeling
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> Reincarnation
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 12 Average rating: 4.0 of 5

a must read 5 out of 5 stars.
4 of 4 people found this review helpful.

This is the best book I have read on NDEs. Could be very helpful for those who fear death.

NDE 1 out of 5 stars.
3 of 6 people found this review helpful.

Near death experience.....I would like a clear diffenition of these words.Four years ago I died in a horse riding accident, it is recorded that I was dead (not near death) for at least 28 minutes....When I had recovered enough, in 9 months, I went on an expedition to find others that had experienced what I had....I ask others that had claimed to have died what was the nature of their experience, without first revealing mine. In all the people I had spoken with and emailed I only found 2 persons that could accuratly describe what the other side is like.....complete with the feelings, sights, music, smells,....As all of us are different, and we are the sum of all of our own experiences....then each one of us has a different experience????? I keep focused on my quest, but I did not find this book of help to me.

Editorial Review:

P.M.H. Atwater was born in Twin Falls, Idaho, and died in Boise, Idaho. Yes, the author of this book died- three times to be exact. Since those experiences, she has traveled, studied, spoken and written about what happened to her and others when they died. Considered an authority on death, near death, and the afterlife, Atwater has written a book that gives details and deep insights into what really happens when you die and what it truly means. She also explores such mysteries as heaven and hell, the souls’ existence after death, the power of prayer, and delves into the truths and myths about death that may shed new light on the real truth about life and living.

The Place We Call Home: Exploring the Soul's Existence after Death

Robert J. Grant

Amazon Price: $12.69 List Price: $12.95 Usually ships in 24 hours By: A.R.E. Press (Association of Research & Enlig Amazon Marketplace: 60 new & used starting at $0.87

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Psychology & Counseling -> General AAS
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> Reincarnation
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 13 Average rating: 3.5 of 5

HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS BOOK FROM A VERY ADVANCED SOUL 5 out of 5 stars.
26 of 26 people found this review helpful.

The author, Rob Grant, is one of the foremost authorities on the Cayce readings, having studied, catalogued and put them on CD-ROM over a period of five years. Being personally acquainted with the author, I will tell you that he is one of the most advanced souls I've ever met -- genuinely loving, kind, compassionate, helpful, open-minded and throughly knowledgeable about the Cayce readings. His book, The Place We Call Home, reflects all of these. It is a book that gives much hope to the terminally ill, as well as to all seekers. He has written a concise book enlightening the reader with all Edgar Cayce said about passing over to the other side and what we will find there. I have also met George Ritchie, whose near death experience Rob Grants refers to in his book and who wrote a best seller back in the 1960 called "Return from Tomorrow," from which much about which we understand about death and dying came. These two men, more than anyone else, have convinced me of the reality of the afterlife and what one can expect to find there.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS WONDERFUL, HOPEFUL and LOVING BOOK!

Editorial Review:

At some point everyone asks the question: What happens when we die? Robert J. Grant, a popular writer, lecturer, and researcher in many areas of contemporary spirituality, offers a dramatic and encouraging look at the realms beyond physical death.

The Place We Call Home is filled with the personal stories of those who have experienced the other side, either through death, communications from those who have died, or near-death experiences. These stories illuminate the answers to questions about messages from dead loved ones, the light-filled realms of the afterlife, and the real meaning of the "shadowlands."

This is a hopeful and inspiring look at the dimension of life beyond the illusion of death and celebrates the eternal nature of the human soul.

Immortal Remains: The Evidence for Life After Death

Stephen E. Braude

Amazon Price: $26.95 List Price: $29.95 Usually ships in 24 hours By: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Inc. Amazon Marketplace: 18 new & used starting at $24.71

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Nonfiction -> Philosophy -> Religious
Subjects -> Nonfiction -> Philosophy -> General
Subjects -> Nonfiction -> Philosophy -> General AAS

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 7 Average rating: 4.5 of 5

Incompleteness Remains... 4 out of 5 stars.
20 of 23 people found this review helpful.

Stephen Braude did an excellent work in this book. Since this topic is amazingly vast, there is no escape from making a highly "incomplete" work. Nonetheless, he managed to achieve a level of quality that, in my view, makes this book a must in the field. It did help me enormously, both with its empirical feedbacks and with its theoretical ones. The main strength of it is its deep and detailed evaluation and comparison of the "life after life hypothesis" (also known as "survivalist hypothesis") vs the "super paranormality hypothesis" (usually known as super psi or super ESP).

I would like to comment on some flaws, however.

The first chapter, "Preliminaries", gives a theoretical background of the issues involved. It is a good chapter indeed, but I think it should have been better. Braude makes a witty distinction between "epistemological survival" vs "ontological survival" (a distinction that, curiously, I myself had come to some time ago, in the form of "objective survival" vs "subjective survival"). But I think he should have dealt more deeply with what is meant by "survival", and especially HOW we survive both after death and BEFORE death (probing these issues leads one to curious and insightful conclusions...). Tightly linked to this previous issue is the question of "identity" or "what we really ARE and what makes each one of us really US" (that is: what is it to be an "individual"?). Further, I found him lacking for not dealing with the problem of "what is consciousness?". There is a huge body of discussion, both in phylosophy and in science, about the true nature of consciouness; that is: is consciousness really produced by the brain (materialism) or is it a fundamental element of the Universe (Brahmanist Panpsychism)? Many, like me, claim that materialism is on very poor and even self contradictory theoretical and logical grounds, and on rather cracked empirical grounds too: almost a "Paradigm Lost". Also, some background on the current discussion about the possibility of "machine consciousness" would have been handy.

Braude could have made his work more "acceptable" to skeptical readers. For example, he treats ESP (extra-sensory perception) as a proved fact (something with which I fully agree!), but he does not show WHY it is already proved. It would have been easy to give a concise exposition of, say, the current status of the experiments on "telepathy" using Ganzfeld protocols, and therefore show why ESP is so strongly based and why and how skeptics (CSICOP et al) have simply nothing to say contrary to it (James Randi, Susan Blackmore, and Ray Hyman included...).

In the chapter on reincarnation and possession (chapter 6), Braude says that Ian Stevenson has 33 cases of the "strongest" type suggestive of reincarnation (page 182), which Braude called "early bird cases" (cases with written records made BY THE RESEARCHER before attempts to identify the previous personality). I believe this figure is wrong, and actually it refers to the slightly weaker cases (maybe not so slightly...) where there are written records before identification of the previous personality, but not written down BY THE RESEARCHER: these records were in these instances written down (and the previous personality found) usually by members of the families involved. He comments on the Schouten & Stevenson 1998 article as if it compared only the strongest case types with the "weakest" (cases with NO written records made by anyone before identification of the previous personality), but actually this article does include the "slightly weaker" case types that I mention above!

I didn't very much like the chapter 8 on "out-of-body experiences" (including near-death experiences). Braude did not analyze very well the data from Near-Death Experiences, both in its possible strengths and in its possible weaknesses! He says, on page 274, that Pam Reynolds had a flat EEG (and also no blood in her brain plus body temperature of 60 degrees Fahrenheit - 15 degrees Celsius - and no brainstem activity) FOR ABOUT AN HOUR. Also, he says that she did have veridical perceptions WHILE IN THIS EXTREME STATE. Both these statements are incorrect. A careful reading of the very same book that Braude cited for this (Light and Death, Michael Sabom, 1998, chapter 3) clearly indicates that this extreme condition probably did not last longer than half an hour (I guess it actually lasted about 20 minutes or less) and that she had ABSOLUTELY NO verifiable perception while in this state! Surprisingly enough, this misreporting of the Pam Reynolds case is extremely ubiquitous on the internet (including www near-death com). Braude's is not the only scholarly work that misreports it. Van Lommel et al's article (The Lancet, 2001), also does! (But Emily Kelly, Bruce Greyson, and Ian Stevenson reported the case correctly in 2000, Omega Jounal of Death and Dying, vol 40(4) pp. 513-519, 1999-2000). At the same time, Braude did not mention some potential strengths pointed out both by van Lommel et al (The Lancet, 2001) and by Sam Parnia et al (Resuscitation, 2001). Further, I think Braude downplays the significance of NDE cases for the survival issue. It is true that NDE is not about "after death", but about "during dying" instead. However, it is the only empirical data in this field that can possibly move us from the "epistemological (objective) survival" arena into the "ontological (subjective) survival" scenario.

Braude even comes to the extreme of considering that the evidence from NDE-OBE "gives us no reason to believe that the mind is more substantial, resilient, and self-sustaining than a fart" (page 276). I think it is too extreme a comparison because he is comparing the mind with what we have of most disorganized, volatile, and short living (gases). I know of no case of anyone ever reporting being able even to sense (see, hear, etc) through his/her farts...

Despite all these comments above, it is necessary to stress that Braude's book is indeed a must in the field, and that although naturally incomplete, it is a work that deserves to be... Immortal!

Editorial Review:

Immortal Remains takes a fresh look at some of the most puzzling cases suggesting survival after death, and considers how to distinguish evidence for an afterlife from evidence for exotic things (including psychic things) done by the living. Author Stephen E. Braude concludes that we have some reason, finally, for believing in life after death.

Coming Back To Life: Examining the After-Effects of the Near-Death Experience

PMH Atwater

Amazon Price: $11.53 List Price: $16.95 Usually ships in 24 hours By: Transpersonal Publishing Amazon Marketplace: 29 new & used starting at $8.98

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General AAS
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> Occult -> Near-Death Experiences

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 1 Average rating: 4.0 of 5

Updated Classic - Valuable Tool 4 out of 5 stars.
1 of 2 people found this review helpful.

When do anecdotal experiences become fact? Is a researcher more qualified to say what is factual, or the people who experience a phenomenon first hand? Who better to answer these questions than a writer who is both the experiencer and the researcher? P. M. H. Atwater has been a fearless pioneer in the field of near-death experience precisely because she herself desperately needed the answers to the many questions she posed in her research. Ms. Atwater states that the three near-death experiences she survived in 1977 changed her to the point that ". . .life `as usual' became impossible." It becomes clear when reading the autobiographical portions of the book that near-death can be a rewarding experience, but only if it is fully understood and successfully integrated into the lives of the experiencer and their loved ones.

Many current books discuss the phenomenon, but few actually aid the survivor in dealing with both the experience itself, and the aftermath of the catastrophic changes involved. Ms. Atwater's second revision demonstrates her determination to work tirelessly in aiding her fellow survivors to cope with the "surprises" that appear to be inevitable after such an event. After speaking with hundreds of survivors, she has discovered a pattern of major after-effects that include the inability to personalize emotions, a changing sense of time and physical reality and difficulty communicating and maintaining relationships. Ms. Atwater also goes into detail regarding the spiritual aspects of such an experience (imagine being confronted by spiritual beings you have previously refused to believe existed) and alterations in brain function. Although many survivors are categorized as brain damaged, Ms. Atwater explains why these changes should be more accurately understood and treated as, "brain shifts." The book also contains a chapter explaining how the friends and relatives of survivors can best help their loved ones, and an extensive resource guide.

One of the aspects of this book that may be overlooked is the fact that it can be of benefit to other besides near-death survivors. In the introduction, researcher Kenneth Ring, Ph.D. points out, "[the book] deals with the much larger question of the effects of transformative experiences in general, many of which, like the near-death experience, involve a death and rebirth motif." In our experience, many on the spiritual path find themselves confronted with similar issues as transcendental events bump them into states that are considered outside the norms accepted by society in general.

The book maintains a very personal and conversational style that will either endear the reader to Ms. Atwater, or be off-putting if the reader's taste tips toward more academic reading. The reading process could be made more pleasant by eliminating the bold print used throughout the body of the book. Readers may not agree with everything Ms. Atwater has to say, the author's sincere interest in aiding survivors and her years of extensive experience make this book a classic in the field. Lee & Steven Hager are the authors of Quantum Prodigal Son: Revisiting Jesus' Parable of the Prodigal Son from the Perspective of Quantum Mechanics

Editorial Review:

Endorsed by popular N.D.E. authors Raymond A. Moody, Jr. M.D., and Kenneth Ring, Ph.D., this revised edition explores the after-effects using both research relative to case histories and the authors own N.D.E. story.

Human Personality and Its Survival of Bodily Death (Studies in Consciousness)

F. W. H. Myers

List Price: $16.95 By: Hampton Roads Publishing Amazon Marketplace: 10 new & used starting at $10.61

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Psychology & Counseling -> Personality
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Psychology & Counseling -> General
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Psychology & Counseling -> General AAS

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 6 Average rating: 4.5 of 5

Human Personality and Its Survival
Human Perof Bodily Death 5 out of 5 stars.
35 of 37 people found this review helpful.

(Paperback edition)
In the 1890's, when F.W.H. Myers wrote Human Personality and Its Survival of Bodily Death, people didn't believe they necessarily had souls, much less that the soul would survive their death. After Myers experienced communication with his deceased wife, he set out to prove his contemporaries wrong.

Myers was a scholar who became a scientist when he began investigating paranormal phenomena. He conducted research and experiments in a variety of fields, including personality disintegration, genius, sleep, hypnosis, and trances. His goal was to "break down that artificial wall between science and superstition." He believed that questions of the soul should be subjected to the same open mind and critical analysis used in other scientific inquiries.

His landmark investigations set the standards for subsequent research into human consciousness. In his interpretive introduction to the book, Jeffrey Mishlove says that Myers's "classic synthesis of nineteenth century field research [is regarded] as the most important single work in the history of psychical research." He adds that it is still "fresh, vigorous, and contemporary."

Like many of the classic metaphysical texts, Myers's book has been out of print for years. Hampton Roads Publishing Company has begun to reissue the classical texts in their new series, Studies in Consciousness/Russell Targ Editions. Their current edition of Myers's book is an abridgement of the original, "prepared to make its major content more readily accessible to the modern reader."

Human Personality and Its Survival of Bodily Death documents Myers's extensive experiments and conclusions that personality does, in fact, continue after death. Readers will discover that he achieved his goal of proving that the human personality is not limited to material life.

Editorial Review:

This Early Study Has Chapters On Disintegrations Of Personality, Genius, Sleep, Hypnotism, Sensory Automatism, Phantasms Of The Dead, Trance Possession And Ecstasy.

Heart of the Christos: Starseeding from the Pleiades (Mind Chronicles)

Barbara Hand Clow

Amazon Price: $10.20 List Price: $15.00 Usually ships in 24 hours By: Bear & Company Amazon Marketplace: 60 new & used starting at $0.01

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Psychology & Counseling -> General AAS
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Self-Help -> General
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Self-Help -> General AAS

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 3 Average rating: 5.0 of 5

The only way out is through 5 out of 5 stars.
38 of 39 people found this review helpful.

Why is our planet on the verge of ecocide? What is the real mystery of mysteries behind the life and work of Jesus? Whose hiding what and why? Whose in charge here anyway? Want some answers? Are you sick at heart over the senseless violence of modern existence? Tired of the sexual battering fed to you every day through the media? Where is the Love? This courageous journey by Barbara Hand Clow into the depths of those questions will move you to tears and resonate in unexpected places within you. Her mindful exploration of sexual abuse and brutallly honest retelling of her experiences in lives past will shake you up and get you feeling. The only way out is through! If she can do it, so can you. And you must if we are all to heal. Thank you, Barbara, for showing the way! This book is far too extensive to be just imagination. It just goes to show that truth is stranger than fiction (and much more exciting) so why settle for the same old same old three dimensional reality when you can have the exhilaration of the other six? Destined to be a classic, be the first in your circle to explore fully conscious ecstatic being. Warts and all! The only fault I find is that there is no index for the wealth of reference material buried in the text. Next edition, please!

Editorial Review:

This second volume of The Mind Chronicles trilogy uses past-life therapy to journey to the underworld on a shamanic vision quest, and establishes a new paradigm which celebrates the emergence of the goddess.

Fast Lane to Heaven: Celestial Encounters that Changed My Life

Ned Dougherty

List Price: $21.95 By: Hampton Roads Publishing Company Amazon Marketplace: 15 new & used starting at $7.00

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Psychology & Counseling -> General AAS
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General
Subjects -> Religion & Spirituality -> New Age -> General AAS

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 27 Average rating: 4.5 of 5

Editorial Review:

Ned Dougherty lived a life that anyone searching for power and material wealth would deem successful - until the 1984 incident that caused his death. While medical personnel struggled to restart his silent heart, Dougherty left his body and experienced a series of events so vivid and unusual that they profoundly changed the rest of his life. The experience opened th door to encounters with various aspects of the divine spirit, including the "Lady of Light," a being Dougherty later clearly identifies as the Virgin Mary. To Dougherty and others who have experienced her presence, the Lady is both guide and teacher, fostering spiritual advancement and sharing the Creator's plan for humankind.

- From a featured speaker, former director, and media spokesperson for the International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS), and founder of the non-profit oragnization Mission of Angels

- Describes the experience that made a wealthy businessman abandon power, drug addiction, and dangerous moneymaking schemes for a life of spiritual purpose

- A vivid look at the "Other Side" - firthand knowledge for anyone who plans on dying

- A powerful lesson in overcoming personal obstacles such as addiction, apathy, and fear

- Describes a series of life-changing encounters with the Virgin Mary - a complement to the surprising number of Marian expericences occuring in recent years

Blessing in Disguise: Another Side of the Near Death Experience

Barbara Rommer

List Price: $12.95 By: Llewellyn Publications Amazon Marketplace: 48 new & used starting at $0.01

Buy at Amazon.com

Browse similar items by category:
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Death & Grief -> Grief & Bereavement
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Death & Grief -> General
Subjects -> Health, Mind & Body -> Death & Grief -> General AAS

Customer Reviews:
Total reviews: 12 Average rating: 4.0 of 5

Comments from a near-death researcher with over 23 yrs exp. 5 out of 5 stars.
25 of 29 people found this review helpful.

Barbara Rommer's book is quite extraordinary. Aside from the usual cases of heavenly abodes, angels, and cities of light, she dares to reveal more about those who have unpleasant or hellish near-death episodes. And she talks indepth about the people who experience this and their fears about what they went through. Near-death experiences are not religious experiences, nor do they reflect religious doctrines, per se. They are moments of "otherworldly" awareness that happen most often on the edge of death and to both children and adults. When we speak of near-death experiences, we're really talking about a complex dynamic that is not easily understood or explained. But true it is in the sense that this phenomenon happens to about 1/3 of those adults who face death, nearly die, or who are clinically dead but later revive or are resuscitated. With children, the figure is closer to 70%. Average length of time without vital signs is from 5 to 20 minutes. Not only are near-death experiences important because of the venue in which they occur, but because of the pattern of psychological and physiological aftereffects that tends to increase with time. Also, in many of these episodes, information is revealed or witnessed that could not have been known by the experiencer beforehand. The medical reality of near-death states can no longer be denied. That's why physicians, like Dr. Rommer, are finally speaking out. That Dr. Rommer focuses on the unpleasant aspects is critically important to our understanding of these states. I only wish that her publisher would have allowed her to carry more of her actual research findings and methodology in this book. Rather, they wanted to keep the text simple for the average reader. I think this is a mistake. "Average" readers are more intelligent than publishers think and are quite capable of evaluating and understanding good research. I have been speaking out about unpleasant near-death experiences since my beginnings in the field of near-death studies, and mostly to deaf ears. Now, finally, hellish and/or unpleasant experiences are receiving the attention and study they deserve, and without judgment or rancor. I congratulate Barbara Rommer for her courage in speaking out. And I hope she does more. If we only hear what we want to hear about this important phenomenon, we are robbing ourselves of a vast treasure-trove of material that very well could describe not only an "afterlife" - but the rich complexities of human consciousness and of our ability to change and grow, to transform.

Editorial Review:

Research suggests that 17.7% of near-death experiences are distressing or frightening. Dr. Rommer, a practicing internist, interviewed more than 300 real-life cases for this book. Explore the meaning of hellish visions. Witness their after-effects on peoples lives: the development of psychic or healing powers ... changes in behaviors, habits, and careers ... even the disappearance of the disease that "killed" the person in the first place.